________________
unlock iphone

Thank you for your comments, even though I find my self in opposition to most of your views and your solution. This subject does tend to bring all sorts of opinions out from many different viewpoints. But after consideration, it always boils down to only two different camps.

I’m not interested in relativistic ethics. I’m interested in absolute ethics from an absolute God. As far as our present economic woes, we agree in some of our observations of the problem. But because we come from radically different starting points, the solutions proposed are different and can’t be reconciled. To illustrate this, I present some of the contrasts in thought. You said:

I agree with you that debt based money system is the root of our problems. This is showing up now in disastrous turmoil in the world economy. Fraudulent banking is at the heart of nearly every social problem on the planet and is responsible for the rape of the planets resources.

We seem to agree here to an extent. But the bible says it is the love of money, not the money, that is at the root of every social problem and evil on the planet. It is man’s sin, individually and corporately, not the systems he puts in place. I agree the present captive-market capitalism does not lead to the best allocation and use of our planet’s resources. However, debt based money systems and fraudulent banking are only consequences of the sin of man. I see them as symptoms, not causes, because the solution requires the more radical (deeper to the center of truth) view that God gives us in His word: sin leads to death.

The core problem is that there is no permanent money supply that is existent in any economy of the world. The roots of this flaw began with the creation of the Bank of England in 1694 and evolved and copied by every country. BoE has now been nationalised in 1946 but your FED Reserve is still in private hands. This makes it harder for the people of the USA to take back control of the FED as a 1st step. But I think that must be done.

The core problem is man’s sin, and in the context of our current economic crisis, it revolves around transgressions of God’s law concerning money, debt and usury. A permanent money supply is not our primary concern in the present distress. Righteousness is, because it brings God’s blessing on a nation (Proverbs 14:34).

To help explain this point of view, I believe there is no permanent debt-based fiat-money supply. Inherent to the flaw that began with the creation of partial-reserve banking is the idea that man (or a few elite men) should have the power to create a money that is disconnected from a tangible asset base and accountability to God’s law.

Money that is backed 100% by tangibles has a permanent and stable supply, unless you destroy all tangible wealth, in which case, we’re dead (and God won’t let that happen, to His glory and advancement of His kingdom). I think you are convinced that money is always created by fiat through government and force of law. This may be the predominant type of money now, but it isn’t the only type of money now. In history there was a much greater appreciation of money as a symbol and substance representing tangibles and wealth that exist without government intervention. The government isn’t God the Creator of all true wealth.

The nationalization of the BoE has not solved the problem, and the nationalization of the FED won’t either. At the heart of the issue is whether or not it is sin to create a piece of paper, contract or obligation that has no convertible collateral and require by force of law that people use it to pay their debts, public and private. Biblically, this is theft, in violation of the 8th commandment.

Paper and coin money and an electronic money storage and transfer system is needed. The private banks control this at the moment and make vast wealth from loans out of thin air money. They also own (collectively) the money supply.

I agree. I don’t advocate a return to an idealized notion of a primitive economy wherein all debts and obligations must be immediately paid by gold or silver. Paper and electronic money storage and transfer can be effected through biblically honest means that are not fraudulent (sinful). God has not commanded against money taking convenient forms that foster commercial growth and activity. But he has commanded against theft. For the most part the public, and most importantly Christians, are ignorant of what the word of God has to say about money, usury, interest, debt, slavery, fiat, theft and fraud.

However, even allowing for paper and electronic money, a just system MUST revolve around local stewardship of tangibles, and thereby would also protect the people against central control and tyranny. I believe that both are possible if the sin issue is legislated against (all legislation is moral or immoral according to the god or gods of the system).

Some means needs to [be] created to get a non debt based money into the economies without inflating the the currency. This will take many years to evolve to from our present system presuming this crisis does not explode to a worldwide calamity where the whole economic system breaks down. Hoping that does not happen the evolution over many years needs to take place.

A means does not need to be created. It already exists. For this, we simply need to look back in history to before when money started to be known in people’s minds as debt-based, usurious and by fiat. If the government would stop intervening in ways that favor the elite banking system, economies would have to return to a tangible base. By intervention, I specifically mention that by law government has decreed that we must use the banknotes of whatever central bank exists. In addition, government has, once again by law, promoted a system that is dependent upon and cannot exist without usury. Take away this house of cards, and true money will once again take hold and thrive if the government also takes steps to legislate against fraud and theft on an individual basis according to Romans 13. This legislation would take the form of prosecuting against forgery, usury and other forms of economic theft and slavery.

Yes, there will be a disruption in order for this to happen. A return to money based upon tangibles in local control will dethrone the powers that be, wreaking havoc amongst those that feed from and receive their life from the mother’s milk. It took many years for our current debt-based system to evolve to this point of dominance. I do not say a return to a biblical situation will happen overnight. For most, it will be a painful withdrawal from an ungodly addiction. For God’s people it will, along with the hardship, be a time of great rejoicing and prosperity.

Historically, supplies of usurious debt-based fiat money ALWAYS COLLAPSE. Hoping that this does not happen is a foolish dream. God has cursed these activities, as being transgressions of His law, and has promised to bring them into judgement. It’s only a matter of time.

The situation is too far gone to hope for reformation within. Collapse would be a blessing if it returned money to the basis of stewardship on the land and local control, for this cancer must be cut out, no matter the damage done.

How? Certainly public eduction of the realities of the money and financial system is very important. Money as Debt does a good job in that for starter. I would recommend a book called “Grip of Death” by Michael Rowbotham. He goes into great detail of the huge flaws in the financial system. You will be a whole lot more educated after reading that book as it goes into vast details that Money As Debt cannot cover in a short film.

I haven’t read the book “Grip of Death,” but the title appears to borrow from the truth of God. The wages of sin is death, and our present economic situation has been brought about by trying to make void His law.

Education is important, but not unless certain radical heart issues are established first. One can be “ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” As mentioned before, I believe that the entrance of God’s words brings light and giveth understanding to the simple. We need a lot more educators holding to a scriptural view of economics, pointing people back to the simple truths found in God’s word concerning idolatry, the worship of mammon, theft, usury, unjust weights and measures and how we should love our neighbor as ourselves. Without this type of revival in our hearts, a comprehensive knowledge of economics will avail nothing.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but fools despise knowledge and instruction. Perhaps the pulpits will once again be aflame with righteousness when the pain in our wallets brings us to our knees?

My own theory is that all banking should be nationlised and through this medium the Governments could then a) loan itself money for government spending interest free (repaid with taxes) AND b) loan money to citizens interest free for houses. All repayments would decrease the amount you owed. eg. pay a $1000 each month = $12,000 per year = end of year you owe $12,000 less on your mortgage. The money repaid would be genuine money that has been earned into existence and this money could then stick in the economy as a supply of debt free money.

OK, now we’re addressing solutions based upon your faith. These type of solutions come from believing that man is basically good. If the system is rearranged a little bit and people were educated everything would work out fine!

In contrast, I don’t believe debt-based fiat money loaned into existence is genuine money even if it is interest free. And how in the world you think it will magically transform itself into debt free money by the application of sweat is beyond the ability of a biblical economist to fathom.

The government controls way too much as it is, and today walks the land as God. Why would you wish to be a glutton for punishment and give it more power? As it is, we already have an arm’s length unholy love affair for profit between the government and central banking. What you are proposing is to permanently join them body and soul in marriage. I want the relationship voided, as it originated from violations of God’s law (uncleanness = fornication). Address the sin that got the relationship started in the first place, but don’t legitimize it.

I like what Bret McAtee said in this post on Iron Ink:

The government then has become the alpha and omega – the first and the last – of our money supply. We all now are looking to the Federal Reserve in order to live and move and have our economic being. The Federal Reserve has become the Shepherd of our economic souls.

Maybe you see the biblical underpinnings of this thought which I wholeheartedly agree with. Maybe you don’t. But in any case, you seem obsessed with man being god and money creation by fiat.

Read the bible for wisdom, open it to any page and you’ll discover economics in application. Although there are key scriptures on the topics at hand, there isn’t a single passage that does not have its economic implications. A few tidbits for example were quickly pulled out by randomly opening the bible to Isaiah 10:20:

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

When we’ve had enough of being beat up economically by the government, we’ll dump our faith in ungodly tyrants and return to Him who is the truth. I flip a few pages and discover Isaiah 13:17-18:

Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

God reveals His complete control in the present economic distress, in having stirred up tyrants against us for our good. Do you prefer to give control of the economy to a government that has no regard for silver or gold, and no pity on the fruit of the womb? Abortion and fiat currency go hand in hand in such a state.

I know there are alot of “oh you cant do that because of this and that reason” but in the end the final thing we need to get to is a real supply of non interest bearing money in each economy. Whatever way is chosen can be criticised on some angle. Nevertheless, that is the key question in my view.

Yes, I have a lot of “you can’t do that because of this and that.” But the “this and that” in my mind are the commandments of God. To me, they speak with authority and majestic sovereignty. What about you? The end does not justify the means. Your relativistic ethics are showing. The key question isn’t going to be answered from the reason and mind of man. It has already been answered from the reason and mind of God.

I would disagree that the upshot of Money as Debt is the proposal of communism. I don’t think that is what is being proposed at all. There is no reason capitalism and markets could not work well inside of a public controlled banking system. Sticking labels on things like communism and that is bad is not a great idea. The fact is that capitalism and communism and socialism all have some great ideas inside them. But these political ideolgies are born from within the distorted system that is the present debt based money system and the inequities that it has brought.

You want to nationalize banking, and hand total control of money creation to the government, all the while saying this would be in the hands of the people (the proletariat). Comrade, we’re already suffering a shortage of toilet paper!

We need practical ideas to tell our politicians a direction because they do not have a clue.

Yes, practical ideas. It isn’t just the politicians that don’t have a clue. I believe the only sustainable policies are based upon God’s word. It’s really quite simple. Let’s address these sin issues here:

Fiat currency … right or wrong?
Money as debt … right or wrong?
Usury or interest … right or wrong?
Perpetual debt … right or wrong?

When the people find wisdom, the politicians will have no choice but to follow.

Therefore, I think our differences in viewpoint are basically irreconcilable. I believe in God, Creator of heaven and earth, who only has complete control and sovereignty in the affairs of man. He has the right to dictate the bounds and restrictions to be applied to governments and money, as well as the blessings and cursings to follow obedience or disobedience. Statism, however, believes in the government as created by man, creator of rights and money, in complete control and sovereignty. To the statist, man has the right to create the rules, as well as dictate the favor to come to those who comply with man’s decree, and the penalties for early withdrawal.

We’ll see who wins the fight … God or man. Choose you this day who you will serve and be enslaved to. As for me, I don’t owe my economic soul to the Fed or the government, and I won’t look to either one for salvation from our present distress. Let both collapse if necessary for a return to biblical sanity, and let the dead bury the dead, while those who God chooses work the land in peace.

Maybe I do only have a pebble in a sling to fight with. But I believe in God’s promise to give the Philistines into our hands. Faith in His word wins the battle.

The core problem is that there is no permanent money supply that is existent in any economy of the world. The roots of this flaw began with the creation of the Bank of England in 1694 and evolved and copied by every country. BoE has now been nationalised in 1946 but your FED Reserve is still in private hands. This makes it harder for the people of the USA to take back control of the FED as a 1st step. But I think that must be done.

Paper and coin money and an electronic money storage and transfer system is needed. The private banks control this at the moment and make vast wealth from loans out of thin air money. They also own (collectively) the money supply.

Some means needs to created to get a non debt based money into the economies without inflating the the currency. This will take many years to evolve to from our present system presuming this crisis does not explode to a worldwide calamity where the whole economic system breaks down. Hoping that does not happen the evolution over many years needs to take place.

How? Certainly public eduction of the realities of the money and financial system is very important. Money as Debt does a good job in that for starter. I would recommend a book called “Grip of Death” by Michael Rowbotham. He goes into great detail of the huge flaws in the financial system. You will be a whole lot more educated after reading that book as it goes into vast details that Money As Debt cannot cover in a short film.

My own theory is that all banking should be nationlised and through this medium the Governments could then a) loan itself money for government spending interest free (repaid with taxes) AND b) loan money to citizens interest free for houses. All repayments would decrease the amount you owed. eg. pay a $1000 each month = $12,000 per year = end of year you owe $12,000 less on your mortgage. The money repaid would be genuine money that has been earned into existence and this money could then stick in the economy as a supply of debt free money.

I know there are alot of “oh you cant do that because of this and that reason” but in the end the final thing we need to get to is a real supply of non interest bearing money in each economy. Whatever way is chosen can be criticised on some angle. Nevertheless, that is the key question in my view.

I would disagree that the upshot of Money as Debt is the proposal of communism. I don’t think that is what is being proposed at all. There is no reason capitalism and markets could not work well inside of a public controlled banking system. Sticking labels on things like communism and that is bad is not a great idea. The fact is that capitalism and communism and socialism all have some great ideas inside them. But these political ideolgies are born from within the distorted system that is the present debt based money system and the inequities that it has brought.
We need practical ideas to tell our politicians a direction because they do not have a clue.

I sent the link to the video “Money as Debt” to the “bank representative” I mentioned in the post, including a link to this post. Here’s his initial response:

Thanks, Jeff!

Thank you for your insight and I am looking forward to viewing the video and the review on your blog.

I just hope he’s still thankful after he reads the review and watches the video. Maybe we’ll find out!

The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

From the official website for the movie Zeitgeist: Addendum:

‘This solution is not based on politics, morality, laws, or any other “establishment” notions of human affairs, but rather on a modern, non-superstitious based understanding of what we are and how we align with nature, to which we are a part.’

I’ve got more of a problem with this solution than I did with the one presented in “Debt as Money.” I align with and worship Christ, not nature. Fundamentally it appears this solution springs from a desire to advocate the immorality of being moral, which is an insane contradiction in terms. A corrupt and confused tree cannot bring forth a right and logical solution.

“Debt as Money” is high “bang for the buck” to those who have little time to study economics. But keep your eyes on the fundamental core problems. I’m here to promote the exposition and establishment of biblical answers to these simple moral questions:

Fiat currency … right or wrong?
Money as debt … right or wrong?
Usury or interest … right or wrong?
Perpetual debt … right or wrong?

Good Providence

I love that movie. It was the second movie I saw more than once, the first one being “Mary Poppins.” And I’m old enough to mean: saw more than once IN A THEATER, back when it wasn’t that common to do so. At least, not in the circles WE traveled.